Age of the 'correspundit'

ABC political analyst Matthew Dowd talks about the state of the race and how some journalists lost their way while covering Trump’s presidency.

Full transcript:

David Brody  0:07  

And welcome everybody to the Pod's Honest Truth, another fun filled Coronavirus weekend. By the way, I should mention this. I organized the sock drawer. So that was the apex right there, took a walk. Let's see. Then I organized the Tupperware drawer then I took another walk. Then went to the grocery store, that's now becoming a staple. That's like the highlight. Well, I guess the highlight was the sock drawer but then I did go to the grocery store. Then I took another walk and then I looked at the exercise DVDs, then I walked away briskly. Yeah, that's pretty much my weekend, folks. Anyhow, I work and live in the Washington DC area. So it's worse here. Therefore, I think the shelter in place orders are going to last longer around here than in some other parts of the country. Now of course we know as I reported for Just the News.com this past weekend, many churches are reopening. Over the weekend this past Sunday for those in person services and I received a few comments from some evangelicals on my Twitter feed. 

David Brody  1:08  

And here's some of what they had to say about how it went because these are folks that actually attended in person services this past weekend. Marsha, I don't think she has a last name just Marsha says quote fabulous to worship together as a group, full house and lots of love no social distancing. Yeah, that's what she said. Michael saying this, my family and I attended an in person service with social distancing requested and optional masks, an announcement was made requesting that folks not bunch up in the lobby outside the sanctuary. I didn't observe any hugging or close contact by anyone. Then Shirley says quote, it's not the same. We're doing social distancing, but it feels like you can't hug and you want to you can't shake hands because we love them and want to protect them. So we do what our governor asks out of respect. I believe Jesus would have as well. And finally Gabriel or Gabrielle, sorry, excuse me my bad, bad inflection. Here's what she says quote, it was amazing so fulfilling to be back at church with my brothers and sisters in Christ. The only thing different was more space between each other even though they stream services and Bible studies, nothing is better than being in church. Hey, amen to that. That's the pod's honest truth, FYI. 

David Brody  2:25  

Hey look, bottom line here is this. We now have to wait and see if this phase reopening of churches around America doesn't end up with new outbreaks right, among the congregations. Imagine if that were the case oy gevalt, my Jewish upbringing, I can say it so you know, churches are trying to do this in a smart and safe way. We've talked about this, but they don't want their constitutional rights trampled on. However, folks, here's the news alert. If things don't go well and they go south, there's going to be a PR price to pay. So we're going to monitor that. All right, today on the podcast, speaking with Matthew Dowd, political analyst from ABC News. Look, I've known Matthew a long time going back to the Bush years. I've seen him in the green room at ABC's This Week, he really runs the political spectrum. I mean, he's been a democrat, then a republican. Now he's an independent. He and I see typically a different take, if you will, when it comes to analyzing politics. So you're going to get a sense of that a little bit. When you listen to the discussion in just a moment. We're going to talk about the state of the presidential race, the state of the never Trump movement in terms of all that going on, and also have evangelicals lost their witness by supporting Donald Trump. And oh, by the way, has the media lost their way in covering this president? 

David Brody  3:42  

Speaking of the media losing their way, can I go here for a moment? Sorry, I brought a soapbox. I know I shouldn't you know what, let me put the soapbox away and just go with the facts because we are Just the News.com and it is all about the facts. Folks. We're in a very scary place when it comes to journalism in this country. I want to talk a little bit about something that I saw over the weekend it was on CNN, Jake Tapper, State of the Union. But first some perspective. Before we get into that, you know, in Christianity we understand God to be the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, right? A 3 for 1 package deal. Best when you're ever going to find by the way. In journalism, there's a different Trinity. You've got the correspondent now the pundit and the activism spirit, because the combination of all three has really led to what I like to call the age of the "correspundit," you know, we've heard for a long time, how the mainstream media is not just overtly liberal, but they're also covertly liberal. And it's also increasingly clear that Americans do not trust the media. So then Trump comes along exposes them like never before he throws down the gauntlet the press is angry. 

David Brody  4:44  

They feel like the victim. They feel beat up on a daily by this guy, and so many are finally revealing their true colors and they're fighting back in the media against this unconventional president basically, can I say, I mean, it's a bit violent, but I'll say he gave them a punch in the face. They don't like it. And so it's led to this intense battle and it's resulted in the birth of what I call the "correspundit." All right, so here we go. Enter Jake Tapper this week and I want to play you an eight minute exchange with Republican Senator Ron Johnson from this week. And now as you listen, I want you to see if you can pin pipe, a pin pipe pinpoint. Hello. All of the times that Jake Tapper morphed from anchor into "correspundit." Remember, an anchor this just in supposed to be asking challenging questions but not bringing a soapbox to work. All right. Let's play the audio and then jot down the times that Tapper goes off the deep end into "correspundit" land here we go

Jake Tapper  5:42  

In 2016 the same time the US was investigating Russian interference in the 2016 elections, several members of the Obama administration requested the name of a US citizen who appeared in various intelligence reports. This person in the cases that you've cited turned out to be General Flynn it's called unmasking. It's not uncommon. You praise the Director of National Intelligence for his transparency in declassifying these names. I'm wondering if you would be willing to also push for transparency when it comes to the transcripts of these calls, especially the calls between General Flynn and Russian ambassador Kislyak who seems that seems to be part of this. Have you asked for those transcripts to be released as well?

Ron Johnson  6:24  

Not yet. We just really got our investigation in this particular aspect this Jake, this is one piece of the puzzle. I'm all for transparency. I think we way over classify information. As result there's all kinds of wrongdoing can occur. And the American public never has a clue but what's happening. But what I'm very heartened by is we finally have a log jam broke in terms of Congress getting information to conduct our oversight. You know, I've I've been on this case, really, in some some way, shape or form since March 2015. with Hillary Clinton email scandal, which kind of morphed into the whole Russian collusion because the it's same cast of characters, but what just got Release because I had a staff member that went down into the secure area the Senate, went to the FISA report in with a fine tooth comb found four footnotes to completely rebutted the main text of the FISA report showing that the FBI knew full well, that the Russian disinformation was actually part of the Steele dossier and the FBI knew it. The FBI knew full well that there was no collusion by the end of January and yet they engineered through James Comey, the appointment of a special counsel... there is an awful lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered. And it's going to require transparency. Yes. So I am all for transparency. I think the American people need to deserve and hear the full truth and that's what I'm going to try and get.

Jake Tapper  7:43  

Okay. So in addition to the transcripts, which hopefully you will push for to be released, as well, I'm wondering, did you also ask to declassify the reports that justify why these unmasking were requested and approved because just listing the names and the dates, we don't... And then the fact that it resulted in the unmasking of General Flynn. We don't know what this is about. Obviously, he was an unregistered foreign agent for Turkey at the time he later registered retroactively. So there are a whole bunch of questions that people might have had. Are you going to ask for that to be released as well? The justification?

Ron Johnson  8:19  

Yes, I want all this information to come out. One thing we have found out is that the FBI was ready to close the file on General Flynn on January 4, because it found nothing. I mean, you mentioned all those other possibilities, but they didn't find anything wrong. So you're gonna close the file until the seventh floor. That's James Comey's office, kind of called down and talk to Peter Strzok and say, hey, let's keep this open, and then start talking about the Logan Act. And apparently President Obama was aware of this as well. So there are an awful lot of unanswered questions going back to the text that I continue to highlight December 15 2016 Strzok text page. I think our sisters are leaking like mad scorn, worried and political. They're kicked into overdrive, our committee conducted a study showed 125 leaks in the first 126 days 62 had to do with national security. That compares with eight under the Obama administration. something is amiss here. Something was going wrong. I don't know exactly what happened, but we're getting a clear picture of it. I think the chickens are coming home to roost and hopefully myself with hopefully other storage.

Jake Tapper  9:23  

Look obviously there are questions about FBI behavior, Peter Strzok was fired, Lisa Paige resigned, etc. James Comey is no longer on the scene. But what exactly are you alleging by the Obama administration? Because I have yet to see any facts at all supporting this grand conspiracy that the Trump administration is pushing?

Ron Johnson  9:45  

Well, Jake, is because a lot of members of the media haven't been asked him the questions haven't been looking, you know, let's face it. There were there were selective leaks. They ramped up this entire Russian collusion hoax, and it was a hoax. And who's the recipients of these leaks? ...18 different outlets. What I what I'd love to see is... I'd like to see them. I would like to see members of the press actually start looking into all these leaks and how this story got spun up the result of the special counsel and put this country through about three years... that's where I'd like to see

Jake Tapper  10:19  

Senator, it's not a hoax that the Russians attempted to interfere in the 2016 election. It's not a hoax.

Ron Johnson  10:27  

They put Russian disinformation into the Steele dossier that was bought and paid for through.... Look at the...

Jake Tapper  10:37  

I'm not just i'm not i'm not i'm not disputing it. I'm not disputing it at the idea that we don't know what was in the Steele dossier, and how it got there and whether it was disinformation, but that's not what I'm talking about. You're suggesting that the entire Russia interference campaign was a hoax and it was not. The Senate Intelligence Committee run by a republican has concluded it was not. Every single Inspector General of the intelligence community and of all these agencies...The Russians were trying to interfere.

Ron Johnson  11:08  

The hoax is that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, the disinformation that Russia couldn't have the 2016 campaign flow through the Steele dossier. And Hillary Clinton. No, I'm not denying that Russia tried to intervene our election. They've been doing it probably since their founding. That's what they do. I'm chairman and

Jake Tapper  11:28  

Then can we get back to unmasking though if we could get back to unmasking for a second. So unmasking, as you know, is not uncommon. It happens. I'm sure you also know that unmasking has actually increased under the Trump administration compared to the Obama administration... again, there's nothing nefarious with it. People charged with national security want to see who individual Russians and others who are talking... they're talking to unnamed Americans, they want to know who the Americans are. That's there's nothing I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. If this is something that can be abused, something you're concerned about are you using any of your oversight capacity to investigate what the Trump administration is doing as well, almost 17,000 unmasking requests in 2018.

Ron Johnson  12:11  

Right, I saw that report that under Obama's last couple of years is under 10,000. And now the last couple years, it's been 16-17,000. And that troubles me. So absolutely, I'm going to be looking into that. I want to know exactly what happened. You know, is it usual customary for the inner circle within the White House to be requesting unmasking? Or is this primarily done within the intelligence agencies? I want to get all that information. I want the American people to hear the full and complete truth.

Jake Tapper  12:38  

The last thing is, sir, you have not made the allegation that the Trump administration is making, which is that President Obama committed crimes. You haven't said anything along those lines. But your work, your requesting of this information of the Director of National Intelligence record now, and again, I'm pro transparency true release at all, but you're watching is being cited as an exam as evidence for this crackpot conspiracy theory. Does that bother you?

Ron Johnson  13:06  

Well you keep calling it crackpot conspiracy theory. I'm just trying to find out what happened. What I do know because we finally got these records on the National Archives when President Obama saw we got those emails from Hillary Clinton was not Hillary Clinton.senate, or state department.gov.classified. It was Clinton email.com. President Obama knew she was using a private server and section 793 F, the section that I think Hillary Clinton violated also includes knowledge of misuse of intelligence. So I've always thought that was one of the main reasons they covered up for Hillary Clinton and exonerated her.

Jake Tapper  13:41  

All right, Senator Johnson. I really appreciate your time.

David Brody  13:44  

All right. So let's break this down. First off, how about that whole exchange about the Russia hoax there at the end, Tapper had to basically go out of his way to use a democrat talking point about how this was not a hoax. Now of course, once Ron Johnson says the hoax had to do with the Trump campaign colluding with Russia well, then Tapper quickly changes the subject because he knows that Johnson is right. There was no collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign. So that was that whole kerfuffle at the end now. Secondly, Tapper says unmasking is, quote, no big deal. He says it's not uncommon. Those were his exact words. Well, hold on. Wait a minute. What about the Vice President of the United States Joe Biden doing this just days before he was set to leave office? I mean, does Tapper not think that this was maybe oh, I don't know. A bit unusual. Or how about even worthy of questioning? There's no curiosity about that whatsoever. No. Instead, Jake Tapper more concerned about getting to the bottom of the transparency when it comes to the calls between Michael Flynn and his counterpart, the Russian ambassador. So that's exactly what the democrats are saying. 

David Brody  14:53  

And it came out of the mouth of Jake Tapper. And then third, this is what tapper says about the Obama administration involvement in the whole world. Russia spine saga, this is what he said, quote, I have yet to see any facts at all supporting this grand conspiracy that the Trump administration is pushing. By the way, don't you love how Tapper calls it a grand conspiracy? This is what the media does, right? They try and throw it into the conspiracy category to get themselves off the hook for asking tough questions. And by the way later on in the interview, I don't know if you heard, but it but Tapper called the whole thing, quote a crackpot conspiracy theory. Now, of course, Ron Johnson responded perfectly. He said, The media isn't asking questions about all of this. And so that's why more facts haven't come out about this. At least not yet. Anyhow, number four. Tapper, Jake Tapper brings up the unmasking efforts by the Obama administration. All right, but then he pivots and says, Well, look, if you want to talk about unmasking, let's talk about the Trump unmasking efforts. He totally changed the subject. Finally, I'd love the interview as well. Ron Johnson starts to bring up the issue with all of Hillary Clinton's secret emails. What happens? Well, we've got Jake Tapper starting to Bumble around. We have to go. We're running out of time now. Really got I'm getting the wrap. I gotta go. 

David Brody  16:13  

I mean, that's what he did. He's like, Oh, so now all of a sudden, they have no more time after Hillary Clinton's emails come up there at the end. That is sad, or as Trump would say, sad! with an exclamation point. Look, folks, what we have here is two inherent dangers are right. The first is a president calling the media the enemy of the people. Look, America's Founding Fathers believed so much in the freedom of the press that they made it part of the First Amendment of the Constitution. It's a key element. And it's really what sets the United States apart from many other countries. However, we also have to recognize that the danger of the media here is when it comes to embracing these "correspundits." In other words, it creates confusion and leaves Americans wondering what's fact what's spin, and that should give all of us pause, including the journalists, we see it play out at the White House. We have these White House correspondents, and they're turning the briefing room into their own soapbox Derby. How about Jim Acosta? Remember that? from CNN? He was actually in the White House briefing room and he offered advice. That's right. That's right. Jim Acosta offering advice to White House press secretary Sarah Sanders saying, quote, I think it would be a good thing, if you were to say right here that the press are not the enemy of the American people. 

David Brody  17:25  

Anyhow. So afterwards, when Sarah Sanders decided not to say that, he said he was tired of all this who was complaining to Wolf Blitzer then he morphed into activist mode, saying that maybe we should make some bumper stickers and go out on Pennsylvania Avenue and all journalists, he said, quote, should go out on Pennsylvania Avenue and chant we're not the enemy of the people. I mean, when the world is going on here, folks, he's a White House correspondent. I have no problem with him doing that. If you're an analyst, if you're if you're in public policy of your advocate, you know, knock yourself out. You are a journalist. Why are you telling people and journalists who go out and protest in the streets of DC? Look, I like Jim actually not trying to pick on him. There are countless other correspondents that do get on Twitter and provide jabs, barbs, just downright snarky comments against Trump in this White House. Look, I've done it at times, too. I'm an analyst. And I make clear that there's a difference between being an analyst and a correspondent, if you notice when I'm on Just the News.com, I'm providing correspondent stories. straight down the middle stories. When I provide analysis for CBN it's different, I'm providing analysis, I am able to see the distinction there. 

David Brody  17:39  

And look, many cover their beat by day, many of these reporters cover their beat by day and then show up at night in primetime and their critical Trump pundits. So the bottom line is what we're seeing transpire during the Trump presidency is how probing relentless questioning has really turned into slanted opinion journalism. I mean, aren't White House correspondents supposed to be covering the facts of the story rather than providing their opinion. I mean, isn't Jake Tapper supposed to be an anchor who stays away from analysis and opinion and just plays it straight? Anyhow, the result, folks, is the lines have been blurred in today's media landscape. So if you're a beat reporter, guess what? Stick to reporting. Leave the analysis to the analyst. You can't be both. When correspondents turned into "corredspundits," their actions just confirm the media bias that they insist they don't have. We're back in a moment with ABC News political analyst Matthew Dowd on the Pod's Honest Truth.

David Brody  19:39  

And Welcome back, everybody to the Pod's Honest Truth with David Brody. All right time now for our interview with Matthew Dowd. He currently serves as chief political analyst for ABC News. He appears on ABC This Week, Good morning America, all the ABC News platforms. He used to be chief strategist for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in California, and of course, we know him from the 2000 era, if you will, President George W. Bush, he advised George W. Bush. And also, by the way, he's also been an advisor to Bono and the Bill and Melinda Gates and their foundation out there. So he has run the gamut. Look, he was a sdemocrat. He's been a republican. He's now an independent. But here's the common theme through all of that. He's just a genuinely good guy. And yes, Matthew and I disagree at times, check Twitter. But beyond that, look, bottom line is he's trying to be a light out there in the world, especially the political world. And I want you to hear a little bit of our conversation. So here we go state of the race. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about evangelicals and Trump, we'll talk about his faith journey, the media and division in this country. Here is the one and only Matthew Dowd

David Brody  20:50  

Matthew Dowd. Thanks for joining me here on the Pod's Honest Truth. I really appreciate it. 

Matthew Dowd  20:55  

My pleasure. Great to be with you, David. 

David Brody  20:57  

Well, let me ask you a state of a race. or state have a crazy virtual race? I mean, what in the world Is this going to look like Matthew, any sense of, you know, Joe Biden's in his basement and doing virtual stuff, but he's got to get out at some point you would think or maybe he doesn't. I mean, where does this race kind of stack up at this point? Is there any sense of how this might go? Or it's just too crazy out there this point? 

Matthew Dowd  21:25  

Well, I think if if people are the most honest about much of what's going on, they would say I have no idea beforehand, and I don't know is probably the best response. And that's something... we've never been through something like this. Obviously, in our lifetimes. I don't know if we've ever been through it in in modern history in American politics. I mean, before the the pandemic hit, it was going to be a close race. I think after the pandemic hit and the economy has suffered, it's going to be a close race, but where things In the fall and how campaigns are actually able to function? I don't think we know I don't think we know where where we're going to be in the virus, I don't think we're going to know with what people are going to feel like is appropriate for them to gather in normal political crowds. So I think what we're going to see is a very different campaign. I think there's going to be some... whether it's Donald Trump or Joe Biden are going to try to do some traditional things. I don't know how that's going to work exactly. But I think I have an expectation just watching the President's approval number for the last three years. I think he is slightly... he's slightly behind a fall in this race. Presidents usually have to have an approval rating at 50 or more to get reelected. But again, we're in an untraditional time in a disruptive moment, that it's hard to predict exactly what's going to happen. 

David Brody  22:54  

You know, Matthew, it's an [unintelligible] along with Joe Biden might be better served if he goes with the government calling card and typically you don't want to do that you run against Washington. But but in this case, because of everything that's gone on with coronavirus, and the fact that we have a lot of folks listening to state officials and getting their guidance from the CDC and all that, it seems like Joe Biden has a card to play from a government perspective here say, look, Trump has no clue what he's doing. I've been around since reconstruction, if you will. And I know government really well. And so that's why you have to go with me because, you know, I know the levers and I can take... I can do what the federal government needs to do in this situation. It's not a card for him to play? 

Matthew Dowd  23:43  

I think we're at a time where this campaign is going to be focused on competence and ability to gather the resources of the government at many different levels, not only the federal level, but the state and the local level. So I think having experience in that realm is helpful in this moment, as opposed to, in three and a half years ago when when there was a frustration about what the government was. I think Joe Biden has to be careful. I think it works really well with certain age groups. I don't know, if people voters under 40. I don't know if this has actually made it worse for them and how much they trust the government in this. So I think by the way he does that, he's gonna have to say, Listen, I have experience and all that, but I know we're in a new time. And we have to adapt new new new policies, new technologies, new things to meet the moment. But I do think by and large, having experience and running the campaign on competence to deal with not only the virus... the virus and the economy have now become intertwined. And I think it's going to be a question of competence simultaneously on both, how do we emerge from this fall of the economy and rebuild it and then what do we do going forward how we handle this health crisis. So, as I say, I think experience, this time is an asset. But I think you have to be careful in how you talk about it. 

David Brody  25:11  

So, Matthew, you're you, you're just one of the top political operatives in the country, you know, this deal. And I'm wondering about how Biden potentially goes about winning a general election as it relates to the two, it seems to me the two ways you can go about this go the blue collar working class, white voters you will and Michigan, Pennsylvania, you know, you need those folks. But but there's this other school of thought that, you know, engage the millennials, suburban women, African American minority group... What's your sense of his best play here to get to, to get to 270, you have a sense there? 

Matthew Dowd  25:52  

Well, I think it's I think, when these campaigns and having done them before, and they did the last big one was the 2004 Bush election was at the chessboard with multiple pieces. And so I, I think oftentimes the media tries to put this into one category like he needs to go after soccer moms or he needs to do... He or she needs to do, you know, turn out people of color. And everybody seems to argue from a point of vantage point of one sect. Well, when you look at the math, you have to add up where you have an expectation that you can get posts from and that comes from many different places. It comes from white working class, it comes from minority turnout. It comes from older voters, it comes from women. And so I think you have to be able to move the pieces around the board, multiple pieces around the board successfully, especially in this moment. I think this the election is going to be close. It may not be close nationally in a popular vote, but it's going to be close in places like Wisconsin and Michigan and Ohio. In Florida, in Arizona, and so all of those places are there is there is various ways to build a coalition to get to the winning margin, and it's going to come from a lot of different voters. And so just concentrating on one isn't going to work. I mean, I've always been a big believer in that you have to both motivate your base, whether you're coming from Donald Trump's vantage point or Joe Biden's vantage point, motivate your base, and persuade persuadable voters. Shere was this misread of 2004 that we somehow only did motivation base. That's just not true. We did both persuasion of voters that we thought we could get that we're independent or [unintelligible}. And then we did motivation of the Republican base. And you have to be able to do both of those things. 

David Brody  27:50  

Matthew, let me ask you, as it relates to Biden, I've interviewed him before I knew a little bit I mean, he's a good guy, and he's just, he's just gonna fall for the earth type type guy. But the Joe Biden of four years ago, eight years ago doesn't seem to be the same Joe Biden today as it relates to... I'm just gonna say it's a mental acuity. I mean, he calls himself a verbal gaffe machine. And those are his words. But it seems to have gone up more, and I know the Trump campaign is trying to capitalize on that, which could be kind of dangerous in itself, because we might notice that the guy does have some issues as it relates to age and mental health. I mean, who knows what's going on there? That's danger. But what's your sense of Biden in terms of the the mental attunement here because he does seem different. I mean, I just have to say that he does. 

Matthew Dowd  28:37  

Well, I met Joe Biden for the first time. I met him in Texas in 1987. When he was running for president one of the first times he ran for president, which was 30 something years ago. He was a gas. He is a gaffe machine. He was a gaffe machine there and people forget, you know, he had to end up dropping out of the race, in that race for some of the gaffes and some of the things that happened and all of that. Very good speaker and as you say, I think he's a fundamentally decent human being a decent man and good person. But he's been a gaffe machine, obviously anything... as one goes and through the decades of their life, things happen. They might forget things we all do and all of that, but I don't think he's fundamentally, in my view, having been around him, fundamentally a different person. And I would be surprised. This is my view point that the, the Trump campaign really wants to run this campaign on a referendum either on mental acuity or moral fitness. I would be shocked if the Trump campaign wants to make that bet. That upon which this campaign is fundamentally decided. I don't think that's a good place for them. And either way, I mean, both of these candidates are gaffe machines. Both of the candidates have a tendency to say things. Joe Biden apologizes more often than Donald Trump, but doesn't mean he makes them more often than Donald Trump. So I think in the end, it's one of these places on whether it's on social media or sometimes on cable news. I don't think that's fundamentally what this race is going to be decided upon. I think we're in such a such a crisis moment on the economy and this health crisis, that I don't think that is what the campaign is going to be decided on. 

David Brody  30:33  

So do you think it'll be decided on Trump's response to the Coronavirus and this reopening and how it goes? 

Matthew Dowd  30:39  

I think it's gonna be... reelection they're always primarily about the incumbent. So Donald Trump's going to try to make it about Joe Biden as much as he possibly can. But it's going to be fundamentally about that. I think a lot depends on where is the economy in September and October of this year. Where's it stand? And where are we in handling the health crisis, the pandemic... and both of those things, I mean, if I were giving advice to Donald Trump, I would say, forget about Joe Biden, and do the best job you can on the economy and the health crisis, do as much as you can and solve the problem and deal with it as much as you can and forget the politics for the next three or four months. I know he's not going to listen to this, but that's what I would do, because fundamentally his his reelection is going to be dependent on how he handles both of those things. 

David Brody  31:30  

Matthew, you mentioned morality that transitions me over to trumpet evangelicals... I think it's probably fair to say you know, what the world are evangelicals taking I try to kind of lay it out as to what their Dr. Phil issues here are in terms of how they get to guess on Trump. But what's what's your biggest concern as it relates to not just evangelical support for Trump but maybe in the macro, the culture and What this means going forward in, in politics and the culture writ large? 

Matthew Dowd  32:05  

Well, David, you and I have had conversations, both in the green room and outside the green room about this. We're both people of faith. Both people of faith both it's very important to us. I have come to a place in regardless of party and as you know, I'm an independent, regardless of party, I think the voters should put the biggest premium on integrity, integrity of the leader and honesty of the leader and whether or not the leader lives the life of what they think and what they say and what they do are in alignment on a place of integrity. And I understand why there are certain parts of Donald Trump that people from the faith community or the evangelical community are attracted to, but to me the fundamental decision for any person of faith or really any person of humanity ought to be in this leader a person of integrity, and that's where my biggest criticism has been, of people of faith in this moment is decide, is this person, somebody that you trust? Is this person, somebody that you believe, is this person, somebody that you think has integrity, that lives a life that you would have some pride in? And that to me is more important than policy? 

David Brody  33:24  

And I totally get that. What about this? You know, the pushback on the devil's advocate view that they're looking for? We're not electing a pastor in chief, and yes, he's more than rough around the edges. He's got all sorts of issues, obviously. But, you know, hey, we're just going for someone who is is someone that is voting for our policies. So it's kind of interesting, because in the background, I think evangelicals go to the macro issue as in, we don't, they don't want to be silent in their voice within politics and the public sphere, if you will. So they feel rather than be silent, they have to vote for what they believe are biblical values and integrity might be, you know, how do I say this? That might be a problem on one side for Trump. But when he's a pro life, or president's promoting pro life policies, and he's promoting a lot of evangelical checklist items. How do you how do you reconcile that when you've got integrity on one side and public policy on the other? 

Matthew Dowd  34:28  

So I'm a big believer that that we shouldn't apply ends justify the means to politics. I know there's been a long history of quoting Machiavelli, and what we need to do in politics, but I actually think what's broken in politics are the means. And part of the means is the type of leaders we elect. I believe that if the means are correct, if the mean have integrity, and if you have decent people have good values in leadership, whether they're a democrat, republican, independent, liberal, conservative, whatever the ends are going to be good. And so when you start sacrificing the means in order to get to a certain ends, I think that's when it becomes exceedingly problematic that we can give people permission to do a lot of things that I think degrade society in order for somebody to get to the end that they want. I have often said to people, that Jesus Christ was all about the means, Jesus Christ was all about the means. He would basically say forget about, you know, getting to heaven. Forget about the, you know, what you think is in the afterlife, forget about that. Do the right thing now, do the right thing now. Love your neighbor, love God, do take care of the poor, do the things you need to do now and the ends will take care of themselves. I believe that's what we should be looking for in politics. And as I say, when you basically start saying we'll accept almost any means whether they're corrupted, competent, lacking truth or whatever in order to get to this end that we think is the good, I think then that's when society and democracy starts falling apart. 

David Brody  36:08  

Matthew, you're you're a faithful believer, a faithful Christian. Tell me about your faith and how important that is to you and how it seems like it really has worked out in your life because of some of the, the entrepreneurial business centers that you've gone into and trying to kind of help as relates to culture, culture, social and moral issues, and helping those along the lines. 

Matthew Dowd  36:34  

I believe it was a gift, as fate is, I, for some reason, felt that gift very young. I grew up you know, Catholic in Michigan, Irish Catholic in Michigan, went to mass was an altar boy, did all of that. It was a very important part of it. I would have conversations about it. I actually thought in high school for a time about becoming a priest for a while I quickly learned that you can't be married... you can't be married or have a girlfriend if you're a priest. So that that became not part of my plan. I obviously read every day I read scripture every day I try to be informed I make mistakes. I'm a human being that has has erred and and done wrong in my life. I seek forgiveness from not only God but from others that when I do that, I will continue to make mistakes. It's important to me I understand, everybody has a different path up the mountain. I'm not a person that believes my path is the only way up to up the mountain into a place where you embrace the divine. There's many different paths up that mountain whether it's Hinduism Buddhism, Native American culture, Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam, I think there's many paths. But for me my faith, I rise with it in the morning, and I go to sleep with it in the evening. It's carried me through a lot of very tough times. And you know, yeah, lost the daughter, you know, lost the sister lost all that it's my faith that I that held me together in that moment. So I don't know where I would be without it. But I also understand why that's not a place where some people are. But I do believe in openness, forgiveness and understanding of others as they walk this life. 

David Brody  38:37  

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. Matthew, I have two quick questions that were done on media and and I hate to use the over supplied term media bias. But one thing Trump has done I mean, we knew that there was a liberal bend to the media before there's no doubt about that. I don't think anybody would dispute that. But Trump seems to have exposed this and in very interesting because, I call it we're in the age of the "correspundit," because your'e correspondent, but at times, you're a pundit as well, not to talk about Jim Acosta. But you know, folks like that, who seem to just kind of, you know, what's the line, the line seems to have blurred quite a bit in the media landscape. Today, Trump seems to have everybody choosing sides. Here, it seems even more so today. What's your take on the state of the media today? 

Matthew Dowd  39:26  

Well, so I think the media serves the media, generally... and news media, it serves a great purpose. We need it every day. Our founders talked about it, Jefferson, and everybody talked about how it was important, because people have to be informed, and we have to have some common set of facts and the media is part of providing that so I think they provide a huge, important, unique role in our democracy. I also believe and I have called to the media and this I think there's way too much hyperbole. In the media, I think there's not enough just presentation of facts, you know, in just very dry and I know it doesn't get eyeballs or listeners at all, in a driveway, I watched this pandemic and the virus where people seem to have a viewpoint and then they go and find stuff in order to serve that viewpoint, I would wish that we could have data and information and knowledge drive that thing. And so I think cable has been, has been a lot part of the problem... they have to fill up 24 hours a day. And part of that they don't feel like they can give, you know, factual, just factual basis for things throughout the day. And I think this whole idea of food fights ... of bringing together just people to throw food at each other at the table because somebody comes to the left or somebody comes from the right, and they're just going to create quote unquote good television I don't think serves the public well. But I think all of us should have a desire for the news media to present things in a factual way to present it to the public, and not in a hyperbolic way that either causes people to be more afraid or more angry or more frustrated or more of those things, because I don't think it serves the country. 

David Brody  41:18  

Very nice and final question on division in this country. Yeah, good luck on this in a minute or less, but that, you know, how in the world do we heal start to heal some of the fracture division in this country, politically, culturally, morally, but, you know, to me, it just seems like we're, we're just on two different islands here. And, you know, I just wonder if there's really any solution exactly, as Rodney King would say, can we all just get along? And it's not been quite that way at all.

Matthew Dowd  41:48  

Well, I actually think what we have is two islands in a big mainland and the two islands are getting listened to more than the mainland. In the end, the mainland is basically just your average person out there, who isn't very left and who isn't very right, who goes about their day, who tries to do the right thing. And they don't often get heard in this environment, whether it's by cable news or other people. And those are the people that understand that the only way this changes is if in the circles of our life, we start acting better, in circles in our life, we start listening to people that are different than ours, and the circles of our life that we stop impugning people's intention, and start understanding where they come from and why they might like Donald Trump, or why they might like Joe Biden, and what is driving that reason to try to understand from there, but the only way it works is if we're doing it at the grocery store, and we're doing it at the hardware store, and we're doing it at the cafeteria when we go and once that starts happening and people start doing that it's not going to change... things never change from the top down. They always change from the bottom up and they always change from out in the middle of the country and they and then also the leaders recognize I gotta change, so they follow where the country is going. So we have to lead them. We the People. 

David Brody  43:14  

Matthew Dowd, a real pleasure to talk to you today and thanks for being a bright light out there. Really appreciate it. 

Matthew Dowd  43:19  

Thanks, David, you too. Always great to talk to you.

David Brody  43:25  

That is Matthew Dowd. Here on the Pod's Honest Truth. Look, you may disagree with 50% of what Matthew Dowd had to say. Maybe you disagree with 100%. Maybe you agree with all of it. Look, whatever the case we all need to strive to do better. And come together. Ronald Reagan once said this, if we love our country, we should also love our country men. Hey, look, I agree. Is it easy? No. Have I failed? Yes. Is it a constant battle? Yes, we're fighting for a set of values in this country that we believe should reign supreme. That's a battle and a fight worth having. Nobody's saying each side shouldn't continue to fight for what they deem to be important. That misses the point. But can we fight with honor? Can we fight without the vitriol from both sides? Folks, can we fight without the degradation? Has Donald Trump and guilty of that? Yeah, 18 font, all bold. But also, let's not forget Hillary Clinton's basket of deplorables or Barack Obama's talk of how people cling to their guns and religion. Both political parties are guilty of grouping people together. So let's stop casting blame on others, and worry about our own conduct. In other words, let's look inward. That's a great place to start. And also, that's the Pod's Honest Truth. Until next time, America.